Intro. (Recorded on July 17, 2024)
Russ Roberts: Today is July 17, 2024. My guest is economist Noah Smith. He writes for Substack’s Noahpinion, NOAHPINION, and Noahpinion. This is Noah’s fourth appearance on EconTalk. His last appearance was in January 2024, where he discussed whether nations can gain wealth through plunder.
Today’s topic is poverty, which Noah calls the “fundamental enemy” in his essay on the subject for Noahpinion. Noah, welcome to EconTalk.
Noah Smith: Hey, good to be back.
Russ Roberts: Parents watching with their children are warned that this episode may contain mature themes and language.
Russ Roberts: Why do you call them “Elemental Enemies”? It’s kind of grandiose, and I think it deserves that grandiosity. But why did you use that term?
Noah Smith: The phrase comes from Dr. Frankenstein. The title character, Dr. Frankenstein, is on an expedition to the North Pole, I believe, and he’s writing about obtaining data that will help mankind combat “nature’s enemy.” So he is nature’s enemy. He’s talking about the cold. How can people better withstand the cold?
And the idea that humans are born into a universe where nature itself is hostile to humans. Poverty is the enemy of nature, not just because poverty is the fundamental or basic enemy, but because the universe itself is constantly trying to kill humans with cosmic rocks and disease and hunger that reappears every few hours.
Russ Roberts: Well, that’s an interesting and thought-provoking observation and one we can all absorb.
At the beginning of your essay you say:
Asking why some societies in the world are still poor is the wrong question. Poverty is the default state not just of humanity but of the entire universe. Build nothingFarms, grain bins, homes, water treatment systems, power plants, etc. will be on the same level as wild animals. This is simply physics. (emphasis in original)
I think that’s undeniable, but you make it very clear in those harsh words what our challenge is as humans living on the rock.
Noah Smith: Yeah. I mean, that’s our situation in this world, right? If you look at the planets in the solar system, Mars and so on, there’s nothing there. Right? Life is rare.
And even when life does exist on Earth, most of it exists at a level of absolute poverty: animals are constantly in danger of starvation or predation, and, as you know, that’s the only way to control animal populations.
And if you look back at human history, for most of human history, basically everyone lived in extreme poverty. This might be kind of a cliché, but even kings. They had enough food, they had servants who did things for them. But at the same time, because they didn’t have modern technology, they were always sick. And, to be honest, they were probably malnourished, they had serious illnesses as children that stunted their intelligence and their physical health.
You see, the average American has it better than the kings of old, even if they have fewer servants. Right? So…
Russ Roberts: Non-human servants work much more efficiently than physical servants did in the past, for example washing clothes, washing dishes, and many other tasks that have been automated.
Noah Smith: it’s true.
And for much of the world, in fact for all of history and life, poverty is the default state. There are very few places in the universe where there isn’t poverty. We live in a very small part of the universe where there isn’t poverty. Everywhere else is constantly on the brink of death. Everywhere.
Russ Roberts: I had never thought about it. Lions are the kings of the jungle, but their standard of living is self-sufficiency. If I could find a good group, I might have a good day. Maybe a few good days.
But we can’t succeed beyond the bare minimum because we don’t have the technology. Of course, as I’m going to show you, it takes a lot more than nature for humans to imagine and experience a standard of living that far exceeds what’s necessary for survival. The natural talents of walking upright and having opposable thumbs. These are all wonderful things. And then there’s the brain. But without tools, and without improved tools, we stagnate. And most of human history is, as George Will said, “Most of human history is the history of a man who, if he was lucky, got to stand behind a horse and walk behind it and watch the horse pull the plough.” That’s the good times. And for most of human history, that was the best times. And that means,
Noah Smith: Yes, you saw it. Monty Python and the Holy Grail, right?
Russ Roberts: absolutely.
Noah Smith: I think the best line ever said about economic development and economic history is in that movie when someone says, “How do you know he’s a king?” and someone else says, “He’s done nothing wrong.”
Russ Roberts: Yes, that’s a very honest way of describing life before the Industrial Revolution. That’s a good point. And of course they had better food and more food than we do.
But there was a limit: although the castle was larger than Hubble, it was cold, except in a few rooms where a fire was burning.
Noah Smith: This caused smoke to come out because there was no thermostat.
Yes, we live like the kings of old. I mean, we have jobs. We have jobs. But kings also had jobs, officially, and had to work. A lot of kings worked really hard. We don’t have people trying to kill us all the time for our inheritance.
It’s like saying that in Game of Thrones situations, where people are constantly trying to kill the king, it’s because they’re competing for the only non-poverty position in society. (Continued at 8:00)
